John Interview Excerpts
Insights on God’s grace & mercy
I realized that life is not about how much good you can do and how much bad you can avoid. It’s about our desire. There is this idea that God wants to damn us, but will save us if we try really hard. But in reality, He wants to save us. And He will only give us less if we choose less. A lot of people think you will lose unless you do everything right in terms of the gospel. But you’ll actually win unless you do everything wrong. Another big thing I noticed was the world “willing” in the sacrament prayer.
Toward the end of my mission, I had my final interview with my mission president where he gave me a temple recommend. I told him maybe he shouldn’t give me a temple recommend because of my bad habit with pornography. He responded, “Are you stupid? If you’re going to be able to get over this, you have to go to the temple every week and take the sacrament every week. You need those spiritual boosts so that you can come back from this. I’m not going to withhold these things from you because that might cause you to fall away.” And that was very cool because that was the opposite of what I thought. That was the first example I had of mercy. I realized that the church is here to help. It’s for the sick, not the whole. Suddenly, those words of Jesus rang true. And then, I got to my first ward at BYU. I told that bishop about my struggle, and he was a homie about it. He was chill, and he understood it. And I got to my second ward, and he was a homie and chill and understood it. Sometimes there were leaders who weren’t as accepting. I had one bishop who wasn’t as much of a homie. But I started realizing that the bishops and leaders that I respect and love are the ones that forgive. I can say that Jesus is definitely forgiving me. I shouldn’t avoid good things because I’m bad. I need to embrace even more of those good things.
12 Step Meetings
When I got to the meeting, I recognized many people who I already knew. The crazy thing was that almost everybody I saw there were people that I highly respected. Some of my favorite people on earth go to these meetings. Which is so cool because you might expect these gross, perverted people going to meetings about being addicted to pornography. It’s also interesting because there are other people that probably deal with this stuff but don’t go to these meetings because they let their pride get in the way. But the kind of people I saw at 12 step meetings were just good, smart, powerful people. People I wish I could spend all my time with. They would be the people that, if any girl asked me to set her up with someone, I’d suggest one of them. I would choose them because they’re open about it and they’re clearly doing something to try to be better. Because honestly 99% of people deal with it. Especially college-aged boys living in their own apartment without their parents. So would you rather date somebody who hides it and claim ‘ignorance is bliss,’ or somebody who fesses up to what he does and is openly trying to be better?
Those meetings were so empowering. You’re with all these people just talking about doctrine and forgiveness. It’s the first place where you’re in a group that big and you can just say, yeah I used yesterday. And everyone’s like, dang. And then you’re able to keep talking. You couldn't do that in any other social situation. But suddenly, you feel this bond with these people because you’re all in this journey together and there’s just zero shame. It’s a weird thing because elder’s quorum is the exact same meeting. It’s a meeting of a bunch of dudes who all use pornography and they’re sitting in a room talking about sin. And we’re all thinking about it, but nobody has the guts to say anything.
12 step meetings are so rewarding because there’s no taboo. There’s no shame. I wish everything could be like that. The meetings were really amazing, super spiritual experiences. And the cool thing is that if you report, it isn’t to say how many times you used pornography that week. It’s how many days you went without it, and you get to celebrate that. Literally half of the people would say, hi my name is so and so and I’m addicted to pornography and it has been one day. And everyone would clap and cheer! Even for the people who would come in and say it’s been zero days, who watched pornography before coming to the meeting. Those are awesome people because they’re in, what seems like, the pit of despair, and they chose to come to the meeting instead of just wallowing in it. It’s so epic.
On Trying to Overcome & Not Succeeding But Being in a Good Place
The sad thing is it’s not gone. I’m not that guy who miraculously stopped just because I love my wife so incredibly powerfully. That would be awesome. I love my wife immensely, more than I could possibly describe, and I still use pornography. And it is in no way a reflection of a lack of love. It’s a deeply rooted habit of eight years that I haven’t cracked yet. My wife’s friend once said, I would never date a boy who uses pornography because he obviously doesn’t have enough self control because if you can’t man up and just get over it, then he clearly doesn’t care enough. And I think that is a cruel statement that showcases a big misunderstanding.
Just imagine a new year’s resolution that was very difficult. Like no more chocolate. A lot of people break that in about a week. But then, imagine that whenever you thought of chocolate, your body caught fire and you couldn’t move until you got that chocolate. Some people can’t even keep their new year’s resolution with chocolate. So imagine chocolate times 10 and then say, yeah just man up and get over it. It’s a process. And the process begins with deciding to love yourself, and knowing that God loves you and thinks that you’re a good person, and finding other people who recognize you’re a good person. And then that leads to telling yourself that you are worth it and a good person, and being open about it. I’ve never been more clean than I am now. And the weird thing is, the fear is gone. You think that deeply instilled fear of pornography would keep me from viewing pornography, but in fact, the times when I was the most fearful about my damnation were the times I used it the most. And the times when I felt the most mercy, grace, and forgiveness and a lack of fear, suddenly I just didn’t want to do it anymore.
When people are addicted to pornography, or have any sin for that matter, and we tend to say, read the scriptures, pray every day so then you won’t have that sin. Too often we connect the two directly. We say, “I read the scriptures so that they will protect me from pornography,” as if reading the scriptures will take away any temptation, which is wild and crazy. You read the scriptures to build a relationship with Jesus. And then Jesus helps to get you away from pornography. That middle step is crucial. That’s why you can read the scriptures and view porn in the same day. You can do all the steps you’re supposed to, like read the scriptures, pray, go to church, but that alone doesn’t work. But reading the scriptures, going to the temple, saying your prayers, all build a connection with Jesus Christ, and that’s the process that someday will help you vanquish your habit.
Pornography Taboo in Church Culture
I think in general, we are very scared of any boy who has or has had an issue with pornography because of the horror stories. But those stories aren’t about that man’s addiction to pornography, they’re about his unwillingness to talk about it and his unwillingness to work at it. Many of those stories involve a girl who finds out and feels destroyed and says, “it’s me or pornography,” and he says “pornography!” and leaves her. That is crazy! That is nuts! But in the end, it’s not pornography that killed that marriage, it’s that guy who chose pornography over his wife. But he may have chosen pornography over his wife because his wife is crazy and thinks that her husband is the most vile sinner in the world. If every time I used pornography my wife said, “You’re an evil man who doesn’t love me, I hate you,” I might leave as well! Those horror stories involve ignorance on the woman’s part and pride on the man’s part. The root of the problem is not pornography. It is not ever any sin. If there was open communication and dialogue and an understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ, I don’t think it would be an issue.
I think many people are uninformed about how this stuff works, and are just terrified of it. It would help greatly if they could be more aware and understanding of how it’s a habit, and it’s consuming and hard, but it’s not controlling his life. In fact, many people have a lot of control over their lives and are doing very good things and want to get rid of it.
Be selfish in a relationship. Find someone who loves you, who treats you good, who cares for you. But pornography should not be the deciding factor. If a guy’s a jerk, that should be the deciding factor. If he’s a jerk about his pornography use, then get out of that relationship. Not because of pornography, because he’s an absolute jerk. I hear people say too often that it’s pornography that ruined the relationship. No, it’s probably because someone in the relationship is being a vile human being. I’m always scared to say, if your boyfriend or husband is using porn, stay with him and try to get through it together. That mindset could lead to toxicity in the relationship, so you have to be careful and attentive with each individual relationship.
The Majority of People who View Pornography Aren’t Addicts
I don’t think I’m an addict. I actually think that the majority of people aren’t addicts. Elder Oak mentioned this. We also talked about it in my healthy sexuality class, and that professor has a PhD in sexual relationships. He talked about how maybe five to seven percent of people are actually addicts. It’s interesting how many people say, if you use porn, you’re addicted and you’re controlled and you have no choice. But it’s not an addiction, it’s just a bad habit that’s really hard to break. That's the one thing I never said in the 12 step meetings, addicted. It made me uncomfortable. I always say, hi, my name is John, I use porn and I masturbate. Everyone else says addicted, but I think that culture needs to change because addiction is a scary word. When a guy tells a girl, I’m addicted to porn, she often says, bye! But in reality, he’s probably not actually an addict. When you’re an addict, it’s everything. I think that’s the big key, it takes priority over almost everything else in life. Most people who use porn, they’re still at school, they’re attending their church meetings, they’re doing so many other things. It is not ruling their life. It’s a part of their life. For most people, it’s something that hits you suddenly when you’re studying in your room. You’re dying inside, and then after fifteen minutes, it’s over and you say, dang I hate that so much. And then you get back to life.
Thoughts on Changing Misconceptions and Culture Perspective
To change the perspective we have, we need to see sin as the natural state of mortality and not be so freaked out by it. It’s why we’re here. If there was no sin, there would be no reason to reach out to Jesus. I love the verse in Romans that says, where sin abounded, grace did abound also. When you sin, Jesus has even more mercy ready for you. And when you feel that mercy, you're not just going to take advantage of it and continue on with your life. If you’re not truly repentant, you’re not going to feel true forgiveness, so that little game will end very quickly. When you sin, you feel forgiveness and then you won’t want to the next time. Understanding the proper relationship of mankind, sin, repentance, and mercy can help change our perspective for the better. People need to talk about that more often so, when they sin, they can think to themselves, ‘dang that sucked. But I’m so glad that I get to have the chance to get closer to my Savior and to my fellow men and to be empowered and strengthened by it.’ Does that mean I can go and sin more often so I can get even closer to Jesus? No, that’s silly. You’ll sin, you’ll use it as a chance to get closer to the Savior. And then when you’re closer to the Savior, you can say, I dont want to sin this time because I love where I’m at with Jesus. If people could understand that, it would change the way we talk about sin and repentance and it would change the way we see each other. It would change the way we talk about pornography. It would be a culture of forgiveness and hope. When proper doctrine is understood, that’s what brings about changes in attitude and behavior. That way, everyone could understand that people dealing with pornography is just like someone else dealing with your their temper. I feel like, on a lot of other accounts, the church is really good at forgiving and loving the sinner and having the outlook of, ‘what you did was reasonable and understandable and you’re still a good person.’ But with pornography and masturbation, there is just so much fear and so much taboo in the air still. And it just needs to go. There’s no place for that because it makes matters worse.
Final Testimony
For an interview about pornography, we’ve actually talked very little about pornography itself, which is the way I believe it should be. Because when it comes down to it, your addiction to pornography, your habit, your sin, every single thing we talk about, should all come back to Jesus Christ and our loving Heavenly Father. Even though I’ve slipped many times, through it all, I have never lost my faith in a loving Heavenly Father because I have felt his love through this entire process. Even when I thought that I didn’t deserve that love, even when I believed that I was going to hell for what I was doing, He wouldn’t let me stop feeling His love. He wouldn’t let me stop feeling the spirit. I know that Jesus Christ is our Savior. And I know that when he experienced all of our pains, it endowed him with a love so great that all he wants to do is free us from that pain and that heartache. He wants us to feel joy. He genuinely wants to bless us, and all we have to do is be willing to reach out and ask. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God because it testifies of Christ’s love and explains it and expounds on it in a way that makes it so approachable and applicable. And that allows you to deepen your relationship with a Heavenly Father and Savior who loves you. I know that the New Testament and the Old Testament are also true. I especially love the New Testament and reading about Christ’s words and actions. You just see time and time again that it’s all about love and grace.
I know that pornography is bad. Viewing people having sex or viewing nude people online or in other media sources is a bad thing. But doing that does not make you a bad person. I am a natural human being with natural God-given desires, which are beautiful and good and helped me connect with my wife in the most incredible way. But Satan has found a way to make me divert that attention in other ways. And I hate it. And it’s sad. But I know that through it all, God loves me and He knows my heart, and He will help me overcome it.
Annabelle: Being Married To Someone Who Uses Pornography
I think the first piece of advice I would give to young women dating young men who use porn is to take a step back and just breathe. Growing up, you hear porn is evil and those who use porn are evil, and there’s no way he can honor his priesthood if he uses porn. You hear that he’s going to choose it over you and he’s going to ruin your family. And that can happen. But it doesn’t the majority of the time. Just take a step back for a second and think about everything that you know about the man that you’re with. The first thing that I knew about John was that he loves Jesus, more than anyone else I had ever met in my life. I knew that he knew Jesus and understood the gospel. So when he told me that he was using pornography, I wasn’t really affected by it at all. I never consciously decided, ‘if I am dating a guy and he doesn’t use porn, I’m gonna do these things.’ I had never even thought about it. I didn’t know it was that prevalent. I do remember a while ago, I was talking to one of my cousins who’s a guy. My friend had just broken off an engagement. We were talking and I said, “yeah she broke it off because he was using porn.” And my cousin laughed and he said, “Annabelle, if you think you’re gonna marry a guy who hasn’t used porn, then you’re not getting married.” And so that helped me shift my perspective. My advice to young women would be to think about what you know about your partner. Think about what you know about Jesus. And just be a support and love them because honestly, the majority of the time, they hate it more than you do. And they already put more than enough shame on themselves.
John and I talk about the woman caught in adultery a lot. We ask each other, “can you imagine this?” People walk in on this woman having sex outside of marriage. That’s a huge deal, even today. And back then, it was an even bigger deal! And then Jesus comes to claim He’s the prophet and says, go and sin no more. He tells the people to stop casting stones at them and says, stop, none of you are without sin, why are you saying her sin is worse than yours? And then the Pharisees asked, why is Jesus eating with the publicans and the sinners? John and I talked about how this is similar to, why is Jesus at the beach with porn stars? Because that’s where he would be in today’s world. So if we’re trying to be like Jesus, we don’t want to run away from people who are using pornography, who are really trying to be better and trying to repent. I’m not going to blame any woman who chooses to walk away because that’s her choice. And I’m not going to blame a woman who feels that it’s what God is telling her to do. But I do believe that it can work. Is it difficult sometimes? Yes. Do I wish that John didn’t use pornography? Yes. I’m not dismissing it, but there’s so much more to John and there’s so much more to our relationship than his pornography use and my anxiety. They’re different, but they’re both burdens that John and I have. So just slow down, calm down and think what Jesus would do, and just know that you shaming them isn’t going to help them get over it.
Another big thing is that you can’t take responsibility for it. If I leave the house and John’s alone and he uses pornography when I’m gone, I can’t tell myself, ‘I should have stayed home and not gone out with my friends because I need to babysit my husband.’ No I don’t. It is completely his choice. It is not my fault. I’ve noticed that I’ve had different emotions about it since being married because I now have a sexual relationship with John and I didn’t before. But you can’t think that you’re lacking sexually or in your physical appearance. That’s the first thing that women think of anyway with anything that a guy does. They think, ‘he was rude to me because I’m not as thin as this woman, or I’m not as pretty as this woman, or my body doesn’t look this way.’ And in the beginning, there were times when I felt like my body doesn’t look like those being portrayed in pornagraphy, so something must be wrong with me. And within 10 seconds, I was like, no that’s wrong. My husband loves me no matter what I look like, first of all. And also, it’s not my lack of anything that’s causing his pornography usage. You have to realize that there are deeper reasons. And that the porn didn’t start after you got married, and that it probably isn’t going to end after you get married. There are cases where he is able to give it up. But the majority of the time, most people think it’s going to go away when they get married, and it doesn’t. Just don’t feel like you’re lacking anything, unless of course he says things to you that make you feel that way. If a guy is being verbally abusive to you, get out of that, whether there’s porn not. But most of the time, he’s not going to be that way.